Posts by Doubting Bro

19

Counting Time: Is it Scriptural?

by cameo-d in

what is the purpose of punching jehovah's timecard?.

doesn't wt psychologically imply that jehovah "owes" them paradise because they have "worked" for it?.

it seems there is a scripture somewhere about "love does not keep an accounting".. perhaps one of you can find the scriptural incidence.. .

Doubting Bro

Having been the secretary and an elder for several years, I began to realize why time was collected. It had nothing to do with scriptures. Notice these:

Acts 1:15 (NWT) - 15 Now during these days Peter rose up in the midst of the brothers and said (the crowd of persons was all together about one hundred and twenty):

Acts 2:41 (NWT) - 41 Therefore those who embraced his word heartily were baptized, and on that day about three thousand souls were added. 42 And they continued devoting themselves to the teaching of the apostles and to sharing [with one another], to taking of meals and to prayers.

The WTS often points to Acts 1:15 as the beginning of the Christian Congregation since that's when Holy Spirit was poured out on Jesus disciples. If accurate statistics were that important, why didn't someone take an accurate count. A group of 120 isn't that large. Even if no one thought it was important at the time, certainly the accurate number would have come to the Bible writer under insipration if it was vital. Point is, it didn't really matter if there were 118 or 122. The about 120 number is giving the reader the general impression of how many people were there which is really all that is necessary.

So, the reason time is collected is so that local elders can closely monitor peoples activity in the literature distribution work. Everything a JW does is measured by what's on that time card. When discussing who should be appointed as an elder or ms, the number one item of discussion (in my experience) is the brother's time. If married, the wife also has to be turning in close to 10 hours unless there is a major health problem. Although the scriptures in Tim & Titus are in theory used to determine if a man is spiritually qualified, if he's averaging 8.5 hours in FS, it wouldn't matter if he fit every description of those scriptures, he would still not be used. In meetings reviewing a brother's qualifications, I would (as secretary) sit there with the box the time cards were kept in and pull names as they were mentioned. If their hours were less than 10 on average, the discussion would be over very quickly. All this despite there being no specific mention in the qualifications for servants about a person doing evangelizing work as a requirement.

Also, you can't manage what you don't measure. As Gary & WC said, it's business behavior not religious. The WTS is afraid that if they drop the reporting requirement, people wouldn't go door to door. It's really that simple.

20

Pre-Armageddon vs Post-Armageddon

by Nosferatu in

jw
friends

what really is the difference between before armageddon and after armageddon?

before armageddon:.

- devoting our lives to doing jehovah's work (spread the good news).

Doubting Bro

The thing that always made me wonder is Armageddon II - The Final Test

So, you work your tail off now, make it through a mass slaughter of 7 billion people, work to clean up the destruction and teach Ben Button style all the new resurrected generations back to Abel's time, only to find out that's not good enough.

It really doesn't seem very fair to make those same people have to face down Satan again, this time with less protection. You'd think the armageddon survivors would get some sort of excemption. How many times does the world need to be cleansed?

However, contrast that with the 144k who get immortality once they get to heaven. That really seems unfair.

29

Have you ever seen anyone get into fisticuffs

by John Doe in

jw
friends

at the kingdom hall?.

Doubting Bro

Yup. 2 elders in the parking lot. One was a smart-ass and the other had a bit of a temper but is a great guy. The later finally had enough and after a screaming match, decked the other. Because there were so many witnesses to the event (it was after the meeting one night), they df'ed the good guy. Frankly the smart-ass needed to get decked and everyone in the hall was in agreement that he deserved it!

48

Have You Ever Walked Out Of a KH "Meeting"?

by african GB Member in

did you have enough of boasting, and decided to walk out?.

that's what happened to me during this week's bs about how to "treat the disfellowshipped"?.

i just picked up my bag and stormed out...... will i get called into the back room?.

Doubting Bro

Welcome WC - Look forward to hearing your story and your comments.

Ex-CO? What do you think about the rumors that the CO arrangement is going to change drastically?

33

The Rapid oncoming time of the end part 1

by Homerovah the Almighty in

to the student of ignorance and fear mongering : regarding your proclamation of the end times.. the point is the select signs of the times of the gt as written in the bible could be placed well in any moment of human history.

for last 2000 years and even be placed with greater accuracy in the middle ages, so when someone reads information from apocalyptic religious.

cults like the jws who are trying to superimpose fear into people so they will react in the way they want them to react, hence it pays to analise.

Doubting Bro

(1) The arrival of two witnesses from Jehovah. These two men or group symbolising these two men will have supernatural powers so as to prove from whom they have been sent. Having the powers to close heavens to rain, turn rivers to blood and to do whatever it is they wish to do and for as often as they wish. These two men will be put to death at the end of their 42 month mission on earth by the Wild Beast.

Ok, when that happens let us know! At least your version is better than the WTS version of some guys getting tossesd in jail and then working through the legal system to be released. Not much of a mircle there.

One question, if they have supernatural powers, how can you kill them? Kryptonite?

Sorry for the sarcasm but you really should apply for a spot in the Writing department at Bethel. Although something tells me that you may have written them before.

35

How Public Talks are Done by some Congregations

by Amazing in

jw
friends

reading lady lee's post about collecting public talk outlines made me recall the following:.

when i was the public talk coordinator and cong.

secretary, i kept the public talk file.

Doubting Bro

I was the talk coordinator both as a MS & an elder. When I was a MS, I'd run my propsed list by the PO before contacting the other congregation. I was never as organized as any of the above posters. I did try to work through all the outlines but frankly, there were so many poor speakers or guys that wouldn't give talks out that it was difficult. I also tried to hook up with each congo in the circuit to get some variety.

There were only 2 times that the talks were so bad that we "counseled" the speaker afterward. Neither time it went very well and there were complaints registered with the CO (and DO in one case). At the end of the day, it was much easier to just avoid the guys than offer any constructive counsel.

I also ran into several congregations that had say 8 elders on the list only to find out that 5 of them didn't give talks out. It wasn't because they were poor speakers, they just basically didn't want to do it.

I will say that I sort of enjoyed doing the talk coordinating. It was fun horse trading and a few times I agreed to give talks at the last minute (like the night before). I would always note my file and when I needed a favor, I would call in my chips.

Like Snakes said, there were a lot of politics involved and at one point in my career, I was interested in playing the game to move up the ladder. Silly, now that I think about it!

91

The Official What happened at the Memorial thread

by truthseeker in

jw
friends

i thought rather than everyone start their own topic relating their experience of attending the memorial, we keep it simple and have just one thread.

if anything, it's saves bandwidth.. i will be going to the memorial tonight and will post my experiences afterwards.. all the other memorials i attended, i was an active jw, so this will be my first experience as a submarine witness.

it's weird being on the other side so to speak.

Doubting Bro

Our "big event" was pretty uneventful. We had 190 (average 120 on Sunday). Shockingly, no one came because of the tract campaign (ok, not shocked!)

No partakers as usual. There were a couple of studies but most of the non-dubs were kids of family that faded. There were a couple of guys that were sporting a golf shirt, jeans & sneakers. They look much more comfortable than me in my suit! I don't really know them but I was told they grew up in the hall - so I took their attire as a statement that they really just came to make their mom happy.

Attendance was down quite a bit - likely due to having the late shift. There looked to be about 20 or so open seats - no standing! Talk has already been summarized pretty well. I also cracked up at the mention of the almost 10k partakers vs 17m attenders. No mention of the increase.

I did help a few older folks get to their seats so at least I got to imitate Jesus a little.

41

Does the rapid end of paper news forbode a crisis for the WT?

by jamiebowers in

according to this article, not all papers will be gone, and some that are gone was due to mismanagement more than the bad economy: http://www.slate.com/id/2215154/?gt1=38001.

that being said, i'm sure the wb&ts will do whatever is most profitable for them, as usual..

Doubting Bro

I do recall a few years ago the CO's "encouraged" the local BOE to put a resolution for the congregation to send a specific amount out of local funds to the WWW each month. The congo I was in at the time I think maybe sent $100. So, on top of the approximately $800 that went each month was an additional $100. $900 to cover the literature as well as the branch overhead.

Let's say that the rags cost 10 cents each to produce and the congo has 100 publishers. Each pub orders 5 public WT + 5 Awakes + 1 private WT + 1 KM, so 12 mags per month per pub. That would be about $120 in direct costs vs $900. Now, figure that books cost about $2 a book on average (that would include the larger Bibles as well as the thin paperbacks) and there are an average of 50 books needed per month(that could be high). So another $100 in direct costs. Plus shipping is say, $30 per month.

We're up to $250 vs $900, still a nice profit. However, the branch overhead must be considered. You've got the running of the buildings, food and whatnot for the Bethelites, branch coorespondance, telephone, office equipment, travel, ect. I would say that the overhead is at least equal to the direct cost of producing literature. So, say $500 vs $900. In the US and other Western countries, they may well be turning a profit.

However, I'm sure that in developing countries in say Eastern Europe and Africa, the donation per publisher is MUCH less than $8 per publisher per month. I'd venture to guess that number is closer to $2 pppm. Now, you've got a money loser at $250 v $200. In addition, those folks seem to "place" more literature than do the JWs in the developed countries. So, it may well be that the literature costs are $350 + $250 for overhead (using the same number as western countries to reconize the lower cost of living) or $600 v $200 in donated funds.

The big question from a financial standpoint is how much profit are they making from the developed countries and is it enough to offset the losses in the underdeveloped countries? Also, I've noticed that donations have slipped off from several years ago in the congregations I've attended. And they're no way near the 50 cents per issue they were receiving prior to going to a strictly donation arrangement. I think the bound volumes were like $15 the last time I paid for one. That's a serious profit margin.

Perhaps the cutbacks are forcing them to become more efficient because they were so used to the built in profit margin that they were wasteful (like the government). Now, they have to act like a business, thus the cutbacks. But, unless they figure out a way to increase the cashflow in the western countries they will eventually need to change the business model. That means continued cuts in overhead which is probably bloated anyway and reductions in the literature printed if the costs continue to rise faster than the donations.

I guess that's a long winded way of agreeing with both Daniel-p and LWT! I think they are still profiting from printing operations but not to the degree that they once were and that the profit margin will continue to shrink unless they continue to make changes.

41

Does the rapid end of paper news forbode a crisis for the WT?

by jamiebowers in

according to this article, not all papers will be gone, and some that are gone was due to mismanagement more than the bad economy: http://www.slate.com/id/2215154/?gt1=38001.

that being said, i'm sure the wb&ts will do whatever is most profitable for them, as usual..

Doubting Bro

I think the WTS has already taken steps to deal with the profitability on the printing operations. Much cheaper books, cut back on new releases, eliminate 1 issue of Awake, 1 public/ 1 private WT (not sure the # of copies printed but I think its around 25m for the public edition and probably only 7.5m for the private), special tract campaigns instead of really pushing the new books, laying off staff and cutting back the book study from 1 hour to 25 min which will mean it takes longer to cover a book.

If their printing operations were profitable, they would not have made those changes. Perhaps they're now to close to break even, I have no idea and since they don't publish numbers in the US, neither does anyone else. However, their behavior does not indicate a corporation that is rolling in the dough. My perception is that while they have plenty of assets, their cash flow needs improvement. What really sealed it for me was the fairly recent letter to the BOEs (that was reported here) where they pressured the local congos to send in all excess cash. They've always had the "funds on hand with the Society" mechanism but the "counsel" was very strong and I'm sure that was followed up by CO pressure. The congo that I attend dutifully voted to send in the funds for a remodeling project to the WTS where it generates zero interest for the locals.

My sense is that they will go to a more streamlined approach. I really think the WT will be a private only edition that will be downloaded and printed locally and that the Awake will be eliminated. I also think the KM will be downloaded or incorporated into the WT. The "ministry" will consist of tracts and the like with books still being part of the deal but not being offered on the initial visit or as part of a campaign.

50

Special Post: 1 year anniversary on JWN - My intro finally posted

by Awakened at Gilead in

i came on jwd a year ago tomorrow, having realized that jws were not the truth, quite painfully, on march 29, 2008. i was here within a week, and within 2 months i was officially dad by my congregation.. ever since joining, i have never actually wrote down a comprehensive look at why i left the organization.

what doubts caused me to leave?

why did a gilead grad leave what i once considered so precious?.

Doubting Bro

Well written. Your story resonates with me and I'm sure with others.